Ballnamic - The Most Comprehensive Online Ball Fitting Tool in Golf Brought to You by Ping

Ping's own Fitting Science Manager, Chris Broadie, joins Making Cents of It All with Jesse Stakes and Wes Altice to talk about Ping's Ballnamic online golf ball fitting tool.  Katie Goodwin joins along the way to talk about how they are leveraging their social media to inject fun into teaching the general golfing public about the benefits of playing the right ball for your game!

Ballnamic is a virtual golf-ball fitting tool developed by PING. It helps golfers find the best ball for their game by analyzing performance characteristics across different models. The tool uses proprietary flight models and algorithms to suggest the top five ball matches based on a golfer’s preferences and playing style 

Tee-to-Green Fitting Experience
Their fitting process evaluates every aspect of your game. You’ll enter information from your driver launch conditions down to how you like the ball to feel off your putter.

Industry-Leading Fitting Technology
Every ball in the Ballnamic database undergoes hundreds of test shots on PING’s state-of-the-art swing robot, and the data is analyzed by PING’s Fitting Scientists.

Data-Driven Fitting Results
Your results are packed with detailed performance insights that includes an overall match percentage for each ball and ball flight projections.

Transcript

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Jesse Stakes: Hey, everybody! Welcome to making sense of it all. I'm your host, Jesse Stakes, and, as always, on a lot of my golf content. I am very happy to welcome Wes Altus as my resident expert. Wes. Thank you so much for joining me.

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Wes Altice Golf: Nice to be here again, Jesse, looking forward to really cool conversation today.

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Jesse Stakes: Absolutely. No, I am as well. This is exciting. So our guest today is Chris Brody. He is the fitting science manager at Pings, Ballnamic. And, Chris, you know this is something I was really excited to have you guys on. I want to thank you very much for taking the time to join us.

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chris broadie: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm excited to talk about bulnamic, and wherever else the conversation goes.

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Jesse Stakes: Amen to that. I love going down rabbit holes here. So it happens quite often, because no.

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Wes Altice Golf: Oh, yeah.

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Jesse Stakes: So overview like, I know, there's going to be some people that see this. They're going to know what it is. And then there's going to be other people that are more business minded, that listen to my podcast or they're not going to know what ball namic is so high level. Please share with my audience what is bulnamic.

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chris broadie: Yeah, Bolnamic is Ping's attempt at giving a bowl bowl fitting recommendation. And so I think

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chris broadie: our our goal coming in was to kind of take the the tour players mindset how they think about golf balls and package that up into a system that would encourage people to think about both in the way tour players do, and then also pair our our data and knowledge on on golf balls to give the best recommendation for the players game that's going through it.

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Jesse Stakes: Yeah, I think that's I mean that that's a lot right there. So I mean, it's how did it? What was the genesis of it like, how did how did Ping get started? You know? What was the thought behind offering it to customers?

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chris broadie: Yes, I think there's 2 different

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chris broadie: avenues that kind of got us. There are the probably the 1st one was in. Think, 2,007, our Vp. Of engineering, Paul Wood. He had a Phd. In solar flares, and so he knew

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chris broadie: a lot about how, I guess projectiles operated on on the sun. And so when he came to Ping, he was really interested in studying. How? How's a ball fly? And he worked on a ball flight model, so that we could use internally to. I think we he had a good understanding of. Hey? If you have 5 mile an hour wind that can throw off your measured carry and height that you'd see on trackman. But if you can put through a ball flight model, that's

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chris broadie: more controlled environment, you can actually predict exactly. Okay, this thing had a 1 mile an hour more ball speed. It's going to go 2 yards further.

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chris broadie: So he was really interested in balls. And we initially came up with the end flight software, which is an early ping fitting software. And he wanted to convert between the range balls that someone would hit when they're getting fit into premium golf balls. And so he started testing range balls and other premium balls to kind of get an idea of how the market worked on

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chris broadie: drivers and 7 irons and wedges, and that allowed him to convert when someone's hitting a not so great range ball, convert the ball, speak of the launch, convert the spin and predict a really accurate ball flight. So we're always super interested.

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chris broadie: in

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chris broadie: ball flight for those reasons. And we kept on testing new balls that came to the market. If tour players are interested in what ball I should try, we could say, okay, this is what this titleist ball does. This is what this calorie Bridgestone does. And then I think, what kind of got the momentum really going? Was Marty, my boss. He works. He's a Vp. Of fitting performance at Ping, and really accomplished tournament golfer. He's played 6 major championships, and so he's gotten.

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chris broadie: He kind of gets fit every season with the new equipment, and he really wanted to try the G. 400 Max. When it got released it was the highest forgiveness driver that we had come out with.

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chris broadie: But it spun a little bit more than the Lst. That he typically played. And so he was launching it like 12. We have an optimal launch and spin chart, which says, Hey, if you're 170, ball, speed your neutral angle attack, you should be 12 launch and 1,200 spin, and

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chris broadie: when he was hitting the G. 400 Max, it was good window, except it was 2,800 spins was flying like 10 feet too high, of where he wanted, and our tour Rep kind of note said, Hey, I got a solution for you. He took a different ball down, put on the tee, and said, Hey, just hit this. Marty hit it came out perfectly 10 feet lower, hit the window he wanted, and he's like Kenton. That's perfect exactly what I need. What changed. And they looked over at the track man

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chris broadie: monitor, and the 2,800 spin was still 2,800 spin and like.

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chris broadie: But Marty's like, I just saw that thing flying 10 feet lower. What happened? He's like, and ken was like. That's the power of the left dot. We went from pro v. 1 x to the Pro. v. 1 left dot, and nothing changed in the initial launch cushions. But the aerodynamic profile of that golf ball was to fly lower. And so that was like a big kind of Aha moment for Marty of like, Hey, you can.

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chris broadie: You cannot change someone's launch launch conditions and the aerodynamics of the golf ball can unlock another dimension to the fitting process. And I think

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chris broadie: the tour players knew this. I think Marty has a kind of philosophy that something that the tour players do 10 years from then will become a fitter, it will become a consumer option. So it used to be that on drivers you might like tweak the loft, and it became the now of adjustable sleeves for everybody, and so I can easily, with a twist of the wrench, get plus or minus a degree and a half of loft. And so it's like, okay, if we can take a tour player solution with golf ball fitting provide to the masses, we could be onto something really cool.

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chris broadie: So that was kind of the genesis of, I think Marty's push for for ball fitting. We kind of ramped up our testing of kind of the whole market of premium golf balls. And then there's a little step of like, how do we actually

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chris broadie: tease out these aerodynamic properties? And so that's where kind of going back to Paul Woods ball flight model days. I spent a lot of time kind of tuning in our ball flight model to the new Tilas, Prov. One x. And so I had a good understanding of how changing lift and drag would change your simulated ball flight.

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chris broadie: and so worked on some different kind of mathematical tools to dial in our simulation, to to achieve the different ball flights that we saw. And so yeah, then package it up into into a product and and try to give access to our fitting community and to consumers who are interested in golf ball fitting.

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Jesse Stakes: You know what one of the things that I think is so cool about it, and it's like I can look. I can see Wes's eyes, and I can see like kind of where his mind is going with it as a golf professional and as someone who works with people. And then I think about my own self where I'm a professional at something else other than golf. And

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Jesse Stakes: my mind, when I looked at it, I'm like this is cool. This is simple. This is easy. I can. It'll tell me what golf ball to play, whereas to your to everything that you just said, there is so much effort, and there's so much science behind it, and there's so much information that goes into it.

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Jesse Stakes: You can. You can make it as simple or as complicated as you want to. You can distill it down to something for someone like me. Where I'm like super easy. I can plug in some numbers, it'll tell me what to play, whereas somebody like Wes or somebody who's more a more accomplished golfer, someone who's working with accomplished golfers

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Jesse Stakes: can really dial in where they want their player to be for course, conditions for where they're at, for the type of equipment they're going to play to your point, playing one, you know, playing a low spin driver versus something that's going to give you more stability in it. And it's like

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Jesse Stakes: it's it's so it can be. It can be so much, or it can be so simple.

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Jesse Stakes: Would you agree with that, Wes?

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Wes Altice Golf: Yeah, for sure. I mean, just from you guys can speak to. This is, you know, a chrome tour.

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Wes Altice Golf: you know, this year to the chrome tour, you know. That's going to be coming up.

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Wes Altice Golf: They may be the same ball, but they're always tweaking it a little bit. It's usually coming from the tour, and you'll see some people like I'm chrome Tour, and they start hitting the new version like, it's not performing the same. It's not coming out my window, and I'm like, Well, dude, what I would do is go to Pj. Superstore wherever and stock up on the previous year's model. That's the one you're in, and just hope they don't change it too much year to year, because it is gonna affect. I mean, I've seen it

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Wes Altice Golf: around the greens and wedges and stuff like that. People like I like it off the T, but in the approach. But it's not performing the same because they changed like

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Wes Altice Golf: the aerodynamics, the cover something where now we're on the greens. It feels different to them. So it year to year. I know it's the same model, but it just like 10 feet. I mean, a lot of people aren't gonna pick that up. But 10 feet means a lot to a very good player like a lot.

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chris broadie: Yeah, that's a fun thing now that we've done it for, I guess. 6 years now. So we've done

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chris broadie: testing of, like the pro v. 1, and Provi one x in 2019 2021, 2023, 2025. And it's our database is over 100 golf balls. So we're not gonna tell you to go buy the 2021 Provione X, but we could do that if we wanted to. And so we try to constrain it to.

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chris broadie: Let's see if I'm is that audio coming through the

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chris broadie: hopefully, I'll mute the notifications.

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chris broadie: so we could recommend you try the 2021 pro one X. But that's not super realistic, but it is fun to track. How do the balls change across those different years? So you can have

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chris broadie: a we can see. Hey, spin rates on the 2020 Bridgestone were.

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chris broadie: I don't know, 500 less than normal. And then they went to the 2022 version, and it jumped up 500 rpm. And the 2024 version jumped down 250 rpm, so it's it's fun for us to see

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chris broadie: the manufacturers are doing to differentiate the different models. How they're kind of adjusting across years. And it's sometimes it's surprising. Someone's like, oh, that makes sense. It's kind of fun to track over the years.

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Wes Altice Golf: Yeah, and I've seen it in a couple of fittings

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Wes Altice Golf: that. They'll get everything dialed in. They're looking for that like 2 or 300 mile power rpm.

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Wes Altice Golf: to kind of come down, and they'll just say, Hey, let's try the ball, and that will either gain or take it away. So it's you know you're seeing the ball being like that final fine tuning piece into to a lot of the fittings.

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chris broadie: Yeah, I think it's I think it's where we want our our fitters to kind of leverage it. It's like, if if someone comes in and they're high spin 7 iron player we've I've seen people who have been 8,000 spin, and it's like, no matter what you're gonna do on the on the fitting club side of things. You're you're kind of gonna struggle to get that spin down. You can kind of power loft them, get them into a lofted 7 iron, but

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chris broadie: doesn't quite fundamentally change the fact that they're pretty high spin, maybe steep golfer, and you can give them a ball that lowers the spin by a thousand rpm, that's like a way more dramatic shift than what I could hope to do with with changing clubs. So there's sometimes a ball is really powerful and the same thing with kind of the Marty's example for drivers like they can be living a little bit high spin, you can find a ball that flies a little lower. They can be living a little bit low. Spin, find a ball that flies higher, and it's nice to not have to fight your fight, your equipment.

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Jesse Stakes: I think it's really cool, like, how you're. You take all of that as well. And you guys have kind of you guys have created a pretty interesting Instagram follow, as well as far as just putting that information out there as far as the science behind it, but doing it in kind of an entertaining way. I thought you guys like Ping or Ballnamic has done a very good job with with doing that as well. I thought.

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chris broadie: Yeah, I'll give. I'll give Katie credit for getting that one to to the finish line.

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Katie Goodwin: Yeah, we're we're working on it. But it's been good so far. So we're hoping to grow that platform a lot.

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Jesse Stakes: Well, it's it's just like anything for for those everyday golfers, for those people that are professional at anything but golf.

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Jesse Stakes: They're going to see that that's going to catch their eye before maybe finding it in a you know, from from the Ping website or from somewhere else. They're going to catch it when they're scrolling through looking at their favorite golfers looking at, you know. Kind of the the golf entertainment part of the part of the sport, if you will. That's they're going to find you that way versus finding you the scientific way, if you will.

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Jesse Stakes: along those lines, Chris, I had a question for you as far as do you think that it matters what your skill level is to to get fit like if you're you know.

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Jesse Stakes: if you're a novice just getting started versus like, is it? Is there a value to getting fit, or just go out and whack balls.

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chris broadie: Yeah, there's there's probably like 2 or 3 competing factors.

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chris broadie: with how important a fitting is the the range in performance. And and

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chris broadie: I guess things that we go wrong with your swing is, it tends to be wider if you're lower skills. So you can. You can have someone who's off the charts, high spin or low spin, and could really benefit from from find. The right golf ball. One analysis that we've done is how much does gaining 20 yards impact your score. And so for a 90 golfer gaining 20 yards of distance is worth around 2 and a half shots.

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chris broadie: and then for for a tour pro gaining 20 yards is worth one shot per round.

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chris broadie: And so it's actually more beneficial for that 90 golfer to gain 20 yards of distance. And bit of context to why, that is.

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chris broadie: I like to think about like, if you're 200 yards away from the hole. You're 90 golfer. You might average 4 and a half shots. You get to 100 yards, and now you're down to 3 and a half, so you've gained a shot by getting 100 yards close to the hole. If you're a tour tour golfer, maybe 3.3 at 200 yards, you get down to 100 yards, you're 3.0. So it's point 3 shots. It's about as a 3rd as impactful to gain. Gain those 20 yards. And so that's kind of how you get close to that 2.5 to one ratio

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chris broadie: And so when we, when we look at our golf ball selection. We see that that maybe the worst, shortest driving

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chris broadie: ball first, st the longest ball is 20 yards of distance. So if I'm if I'm telling you okay, how much could you gain by going through a ball fitting? It's 2 and a half shots for the 90 golfer. It's 1 shot for the tour pro but the tour pro is way more sensitive. Like, as Wes is saying, the the 1010 feet of peak height difference. A tour pro is going to pick up on that instantly. Say, oh, I don't like that versus a novice is going to not notice that shot to shot as much.

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chris broadie: so.

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chris broadie: yeah, I think I think there, that kind. I think it kind of gives you a good flavor of of the range of of outcomes. The other thing, I think, is interesting is that speed is a really important

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chris broadie: has it? Both ties to skill level and to golf ball performance. So the

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chris broadie: the better golfers tend to be faster golfers. And what we've seen with golf balls is that

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chris broadie: there are kind of slow lower compression golf balls that are that are marketed to slower swing speed. Golfers and higher compression. Golf balls are market to fast swing speed golfers.

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chris broadie: And it's like a in a in my mind. It's like a bit of a myth of of

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chris broadie: if you're slow, you should use a lower compression ball. But and so what we've seen our testing is that if there's a slow verse fast and on a hundred 15 mile per hour, driver shot is around 4, possibly even 5 miles an hour ball speed.

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chris broadie: So that's massive. That's 1015 yards right there, and then you lose some more if their dynamics are bad. But when you don't swing as fast. There's not as much of a ball speed change.

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chris broadie: And so if you're 80 mile per hour Driver Club at speed, it might be a mile and a half or 2 miles an hour, so that 4 mile an hour difference changed to 2 miles an hour.

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chris broadie: And then what you do tend to see with lower compression balls that they also have lower spin, particularly on your 7 irons. And so you might see

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chris broadie: someone gained a little bit distance on their 7 iron because of the lower spin. And so I think that's kind of how golf ball manufacturers have arrived to targeting lower compression at slower swings for golfers, it might feel better you might not lose that much distance on a driver, but then you have lower spin, which will make your 7 irons and irons fly a little bit further. So it's definitely a bunch of nuance of

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chris broadie: the interplay of speed, skill, and how much it could save you, but I think it is pretty cool that a golf ball, fitting for 90 handicap or a 90 golfer could change your score by 4 shots from the distance you lose on a driver and a 7 iron and control around the green.

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Jesse Stakes: Well, and I think it kind of flips that dynamic where people a lot of the times are like. Well, I'm not that good. I should. I don't need to get fit or well, I'm not that good. It doesn't matter what I play, but when you frame it in that way, when you're like, hey? If you're if you're averaging around 90, if you're if you're that guy who's, you know, shooting above 85, you're you're literally leaving shots on the table by not caring what you're playing. I think that's that's a huge point to make.

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chris broadie: Yeah. And then and for us, I think it's it's why we care about so much at ping, even though we don't make a golf ball. It's like we can fight really hard to gain you 5 yards on on a driver fitting, and then we'd hate for you to just pick any ball off the rack, and then lose 20 yards immediately there.

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Jesse Stakes: Okay.

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chris broadie: So it's like.

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chris broadie: if if you're gonna go through the effort to buy a new driver, we also make sure you're playing a pretty good golf ball for your game.

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Jesse Stakes: No.

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Wes Altice Golf: And and also, you know, with that I see it a lot with my students. They'll get the driver fit, you know all that, and I look in their bag, and I see about 15 balls that they pulled out of the lake on Number 4, and it's just like you. Just you spent all that money on a driver, and you're literally just bringing it back 10 years by waterlog balls just secondhand balls, all of that. So I think we're starting to see more, and more especially with Ball Namic, like how important the golf ball is with the fit into your equipment.

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chris broadie: Yeah, definitely.

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Jesse Stakes: So let's get into it like, what does it look like when somebody uses your system like, I mean, and we don't have to step by, you know, we don't have to step through click by click. But can you just kind of tell somebody what what are they gonna experience when they go through the Bonamic fitting.

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chris broadie: Yeah. So we we try to kind of guide you from T to green. So we start with some driver questions. Try to figure out.

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chris broadie: What trajectory do you want to hit the ball?

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chris broadie: How how sensitive you are to performance in the wind! I think that's a pretty nice thing that we've layered on on top of our ball predictions is how balls are form in different wind conditions. And so when you have a 10 foot difference in peak height that can change how far your ball goes by 5, 10 yards into the wind versus downwind.

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chris broadie: So if you are, if you do plan a windy, windy area, you might say, Hey, I really care about this ball's wind performance, and then we work our way to 7 iron kind of your iron performance and ask about how, how much stopping power do you want into the greens? Are you someone who struggles the whole greens or has issues kind of ripping it off the front of greens. Workability is a fun one. And so again, it's like how to tour. Personally, golf balls. Tiger has always been a guy who who knows he can take spin off of it so he wants

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chris broadie: so he doesn't mind a ball that spins really high, and the benefit of having the really high spin is, you get high workability. So he has. He likes the Torbix that he can curve around trees, curve into greens, have it spin a certain way when it lands on a green. So we have a workability preference built in probably one of the one of the more fun questions is flyer performance. And so

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chris broadie: it's maybe one that you experience a little bit more as a as a higher speed golfer. But if you're in light rough, maybe a dewy morning.

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chris broadie: a lot of people kind of in this pitching wedge. 9 iron, 8 iron zone will experience a shot that kind of rockets over the green.

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Jesse Stakes: Right.

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chris broadie: What happened. I didn't. I didn't

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chris broadie: feel like I hit that any harder, and it just flew on me.

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Jesse Stakes: Like both.

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chris broadie: Yeah, we'll go far, and it. It's tough when that happens, and you're not expecting it. And you hit over green where it's usually a little bit hard to get up and down, and all of a sudden you have a dull bogey on your score.

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chris broadie: And so the question is, can you decode

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chris broadie: whether golf balls are more or less prone to flyers? And so the test that we run at Ping is is spritzing water on the golf ball and hitting a wedge which kind of has the most loft, and be the most sensitive to changes in friction and measuring the spin rate. So this is how we dial in our wedge grooves. I think on my golf spot we've kind of won the wet wedge retention spin test for a few years in a row.

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Jesse Stakes: I need that T-shirt

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Jesse Stakes: remodel. Oh.

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Wes Altice Golf: If.

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chris broadie: But yeah, so we do it on every golf ball, and it's pretty dramatic. But the differences we'll see when you add moisture to to a wet shot, and you'll see

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chris broadie: good golf balls or balls are good at retaining spin. Keep almost the same spin between wet and dry and bad golf balls. It can go from 10,000 spin down to 6,000 spin

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chris broadie: And part of the reason why we don't. We try to test pretty premium golf balls is if you go to a sterling cover, you're basically guaranteed to get that knuckleball. It's really hard to get spin around the green. Even in dry conditions. And then you go into wet conditions and you have 0 chance. So it's pretty dramatically.

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chris broadie: even between premium balls. It's dramatic between you can get some balls actually go up and spin to like 11,000, some 9,000, and then, if they struggle in what conditions they're down 6,000, even 4,000.

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Jesse Stakes: It's crazy. I mean, it's an enormous difference in performance.

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chris broadie: Yeah, it's

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chris broadie: yes, it's why it's why we care so much about it, both in our in our wedge testing side of things and also ball testing.

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chris broadie: and yeah, it's kind of eye opening every time and then kind of rounding out the questionnaire. We go to kind of greenside performance and putter feel. And so we'll look at. How does the ball spin on on 30 or 40 yard pitch shots? And then how does the ball feel on when you're on the green is a firm medium soft. The wedge Greenside chip test is pretty fun where it's like we've seen that high

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chris broadie: high spin balls on a 30 yard. Pitch shot will spin at 7,000 rpm. And it's pretty much like a 500 rpm. Gradient where the next tier of goals will spin at 6,500. The next tier will spend at 6,000, and kind of lower tier balls will spin at 5,500. So they're pretty.

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chris broadie: The nice thing from like my stats. Perspective is that these differences are very significant between golf balls, like when we see a 10 yard difference in peak height on a driver that's every single our ping man that we test on is so repeatable that the window of ball flights is probably plus or minus a couple feet. And so when you see a 10 foot difference, it's like, Okay, that is a totally different aerodynamic profile for that golf ball.

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chris broadie: Oh.

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chris broadie: so yeah, that was a meandering walk through the through it. But try to go all through, driver through iron, through wedge, through putter, and then pair up your your preferences to the golf ball. We recommend.

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Jesse Stakes: I think it's fantastic. I noticed when I did it myself. You can take it kind of 2 directions of right off the bat. You can either go with your exact numbers with. If you if you know your true, your stats, you can actually input your spin numbers.

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Jesse Stakes: or you can kind of go down the the kind of, I guess, like, you know. How far do you hit a 7 iron type of a route as well? Yes.

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chris broadie: Yeah, so definitely, yeah, we knew that kind of the nuance. If you're in a fitting environment, you'll probably be hitting balls on a launch monitor on a trackman on a foresight, so you'll know your balls to launch and spin. Some better players, probably kind of have their driver launch issues off the top of their head. But

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chris broadie: I know I've only known my 7 h long traditions, because I've

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chris broadie: become very aware of it in the past couple of years through testing, but that's a very rare one for people to know and so it helps to have. If you're at home to have a quick gut check. Okay, I know I tend to spend a little bit higher or launch a little bit low, and we'll guess we'll do a pretty accurate guess, based on all the other fittings we've seen of what we think. Your launch kitchens will be

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chris broadie: And so yeah, we tried to have have the the route for the fitters. That may be way more detailed. But then, if you're

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chris broadie: a little bit new to launch cushions or new new to golf, we can. We can guess our way to some pretty accurate recommendations as well.

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Jesse Stakes: So do you feel like there's a like in this? I think you've probably answered some of this already with some of the conversation that we've had. But I've always felt like when you're in a kind of a controlled environment. And when you're looking at numbers on a launch monitor and then kind of taking it out to real world like sometimes there's differences, sometimes it doesn't necessarily like it's that you know what's on it. What's on a spreadsheet doesn't necessarily always match, or at least doesn't feel like it matches reality. Do you guys find that that

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Jesse Stakes: in real life? No, you are what the spreadsheet says, because we're using, you know, we're using data that's not wrong. Data doesn't lie. Or do you feel like, you know, it's 1 of those things to where?

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Jesse Stakes: Okay, you get out in the real world. And then people, people kind of gravitate towards a feel they like or kind of. You know, when you talk about like a tiger woods, or somebody who's like who's used to bending a ball a certain amount or used to seeing certain shot patterns. They're gonna they're gonna force that ball to to kind of fit what they want it to do. Does that? Does that make sense.

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chris broadie: Yeah, no, I think it's a i think it's a really interesting question. There's there's a few different avenues.

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chris broadie: yeah. So I think one thing that we definitely make sure to do is if we have a ball that shows up, and it's like, Oh, this is a really good performing ball from our testing. We'll go out and we'll play with it for a few holes, and so I think we've had

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chris broadie: some snowball, some Max fly balls, some vice balls recently like, Wow, like, Wow, that that performances should be comparable to a Prov. One x like. And its price point is lower. Is that real, and we'll go out and test it and and see

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chris broadie: what kind of performance are we actually see on the course? That's kind of the the ultimate validation. You want a high level golfer to to play it in the environment that really matters

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chris broadie: And so I think most time we have seen that that our our findings do kind of translate pretty well to real life. And so when that ball does fly 10 feet higher than you expect it, it floats out there. I think

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chris broadie: I don't know. I've seen enough golf shots where I kind of have a pretty good like track man eyes where I say, okay, that that flowed a little bit. That's.

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chris broadie: 3,000 spin that kind of knuckle that's 2,200 spin, and so I have a pretty good feel of like what the air to nam profile on a golf ball is from from watching the ball flight. And it helps when you have a guy like Marty, who's played a major championships whose ball flights consistent enough that when the ball does go 10 feet higher he's like, that seemed a little bit funny. So I think that translates pretty well.

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chris broadie: the I think the the interesting one that

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chris broadie: that we found, I think, gets gets pretty nuanced is we actually had this on our on our iron grooves, where we

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chris broadie: we've done a lot of testing on on what's the most predictable iron grooves, or what's the optimal iron grooves. For, like our tour player irons, and we found that tight spaced grooves generate the most friction for us, and so that should lead to high spin both off dry conditions and off wet conditions.

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chris broadie: The interesting thing is that kind of more traditional little wider space grooves have a little bit lower friction. That lower friction off a fairway lie actually, for a 7 iron will generate a tiny bit more spin, and the lower friction off of a wet lie will generate a little bit less spin. So it's kind of this separation between how the ball will form, how the iron will form in dry versus wet conditions. And

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chris broadie: so we had pastas. It would be better if it was constant the entire time. It would be better if we went to that tight space groove pattern and the feedback we got from our our tour players is actually liked the kind of original tour groove because they liked the higher spin off the ferry conditions, and they could play for the flyer when they were in the rough. And so it was predictably like bad, in a sense.

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chris broadie: And so I think that's a case where sometimes, like our algorithms are going to say, Oh, well, this ball is great because it retains spin in wet conditions most of the time, but for a tour player that actually could lead to some unpredictability where they're in a condition with light amounts of moisture, light rough, and they actually get some spin. But then you go in a little bit deeper rough, and they don't get any spin because it's just too much to overcome. And so there's kind of a fine balance of

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chris broadie: kind of where what our what our models predict is the best possible scenario versus what tour player finds the most predictable or good player finds the most predictable in real life, so that might be a bit of a deviation where you have to find the the combination that works best for you.

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Jesse Stakes: Chris. One thing I can guarantee you is that you just sent about 10% of our listeners to their golf bag to stare at how space

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Jesse Stakes: Czarre and they're about to go.

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Jesse Stakes: They're about to go demo irons and look for irons with closer space grooves. I guarantee you.

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chris broadie: They they are, they are hard to clean. That's why that's why I found as a caddy.

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Jesse Stakes: So

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Jesse Stakes: I think that you know I'd be remiss if I didn't bring up. You know all of these, like all of these ball brands, whether it's whether it's titleist, if it's Callaway, if it's you know anybody that has a ball, Bridgestone, even the smaller brands like you brought up Vice and Snell, and all these. They all have some sort of an online fitting tool now. And so I'd be remiss if I didn't ask. What do you see as the big differentiator the difference between Ballnamic and just using what these companies are offering.

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chris broadie: Yeah, I mean, I think I I did a quick peek through the the tyless ball fitting site before I before I hopped on, and it's good to kind of get a refresher of what they're doing. I think the difficulty they have is they

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chris broadie: aren't gonna try to quantify the performance. Precisely. They're gonna give you buckets of high medium, low flight or spin or Greenside feel. And because we are

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chris broadie: agnostic, unbiased, we can get a little more direct of here. Here's our prediction for how this will perform with you. Exactly. I think it's frustrating. If you go to a if you go to a superstore, and you look at the size of these boxes you're choosing between very high greenside spin or high green side spin, or I don't know low, penetrating flight or low flight, and it's like, Well, that's not really telling me anything. And all.

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Jesse Stakes: It's all subject.

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chris broadie: The same thing. Yeah. And versus like, one company's medium can be another company's high. It's nice to kind of have we tested all on our ping in the same settings. And we can tell you, okay, this is actually what a high flight looks like. This is what a low flight looks like

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chris broadie: so it's a pretty powerful spot to be in of of we can. We can kind of give you a pretty nice, unbiased view of of things.

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Jesse Stakes: What about versus like in person when you're when you're doing something in person like you go to. And I think one of the things that you said. You're unbiased, like you guys are not picking a brand over another. I think that that's huge. But like when somebody is being fit

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Jesse Stakes: like. I would think theoretically, if they're using real numbers, if they're using numbers off of a trackman or off of a off of a good launch monitor, that there shouldn't be much of a difference as far as the input in person versus the input

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Jesse Stakes: online, correct.

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chris broadie: Yeah. So I'd say, like, I think it's really easy to think that in person you can actually hit the ball. It'll be so much better than whatever we can possibly do online. And I think this is

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chris broadie: one of the rare cases where I would say, it's actually better to do a a ball namic fitting. So one of the

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chris broadie: one of the issues with hitting indoors

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chris broadie: is you'll get the initial ball, speed launch and spin, but you won't see the aerodynamics. If you're indoors, the trackman, or quad, or whatever launch monitor will predict out how far the ball and how high the ball will fly based on their own internal ball model. And it's not ball specific.

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chris broadie: So that Marty case of he tried the Pro. v. 1 x versus the Pro. v. 1 left Dot. He'll never see that actual flight difference. The only reason why I saw it was because he was hitting indoor to outdoor, and could see that ball flight go down by 10 feet, and that's usually not. I'd be shocked if if people allow you to do ball testing outdoors and have to collect the balls at the end of your fitting.

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Wes Altice Golf: Hello!

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chris broadie: So aerodynamics are pretty much impossible to determine

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chris broadie: in a ball fitting, which is really tough, and the other one is the repeatability necessary to distinguish the differences that we see in ball. Namic is really really hard. We've done analysis of a scratch golfer versus ping man, and we can get your ball speed for a golf ball within 0 point 2 miles an hour

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chris broadie: it would take, and that is, that's in 5 shots.

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chris broadie: So basically, all 5 shots are in this kind of point 2 mile an hour. Butt band. We kind of have all those actually to go to the end of ball namical to give you our confidence intervals for what the carrier will be, what the height will be.

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chris broadie: and if you have a scratch golfer hit 400 shots.

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chris broadie: with a ball. That's how many it takes to get down to a point 2 mile per hour. Ball speed, confidence, interval.

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Jesse Stakes: Hmm.

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chris broadie: And so if you're trying to get precise with how ball performs like, there's no chance you're going to hit 400 drives with one ball, and then 400 drives with the next ball, and that's how much it will take to get to the equivalent of 5 shots of ping man.

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Jesse Stakes: Right.

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chris broadie: And so like, if if you're doing the in-person thing, it might help for for some field sensations how the feeling of putting chipping you might get a might get your kind of visceral reaction to how that ball feels. Do you like it or not? But you will never get close to teasing out ball speed, launch and spin differences at the way you can off of our off our ping man and ball dynamic testing.

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Jesse Stakes: No doubt, West. I don't want to suck up all the air in the room. I didn't. Wanna I wanna give you some room to ask anything you have as well.

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Wes Altice Golf: No, I mean kind of answering my questions as we're going along. So this is great. And you know I really like how you're paying with the balls is brand agnostic, you know, and getting very precise on defining what a low trajectory is compared to a high and being able to categorize them

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Wes Altice Golf: out so people can make that decision on their own, because it's not practical to go like you said, and hit 400 balls and try and figure out. If it's good, at least you can get a ball or 2 and then go out. Get a sleeve or 2 and try it. Based on what the suggestion is. So it cuts the time out of trying to find out what ball you want, and, you know, get all the other brands out of your head that you

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Wes Altice Golf: no need to even try.

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chris broadie: Yeah, I think it's I think it's a big thing for me of

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chris broadie: now when I'm on the course, and I and I and I see a random random ball that you may find in the woods. And you're like.

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chris broadie: Okay, I know. I know what the tailor-made Tb. 5 x kind of general trends are. I know, if I want to like, maybe pick this up and play it for the rest of the round. So it's it's pretty nice to know what trends you'd expect, and then they can obviously verify by playing it. But it's it's nice to have that jumpstart instead of just going to a

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chris broadie: box store and having seeing a sea of a hundred selections, having no idea where to go. It's nice to. Okay. Here are the 3 to 5 that should fit my game pretty well. This one doesn't fit my game because of XY, and ZI think it's really helpful.

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chris broadie: Practical use of of bulnamic.

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Jesse Stakes: No doubt, so are there any brands that have pushed back to like they're like, Hey, we don't want to be a part of we don't want to be a part of your footing tool. I was kind of curious about that when I was going through it.

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chris broadie: Yeah, I think,

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chris broadie: there's there's probably a little bit. I think it's a little a little bit new early on

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chris broadie: about like what impact it would have.

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chris broadie: but I think most mostly we've kind of been on the other side of things where we've had a couple of brands. Say, Hey, we're coming out with this ball. We would like if you test it. I think that's that's definitely been.

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Jesse Stakes: That's awesome.

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chris broadie: The way, more common scenario.

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chris broadie: and I think it's also, I guess, going back to like the titleist, Walt golf Ball recommender. It's kind of fun to see some of

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chris broadie: our visuals kind of make make their way into how other brands showcase their balls like, I don't think that you got a full breakdown of different performance characteristics across

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chris broadie: Driver 7 iron Greenside spin before they have a match match. They wrote down match performance indicator, which is very close to our match percentage. So it's kind of nice to see our tools kind of influence. How how golf ball manufacturers promote their own golf balls.

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Jesse Stakes: No doubt I feel like they should be giving you guys a commission like, if you're you're throwing recommendations out there they should be. You guys should have some way to track that and and collect a piece of revenue off of it. I know I was saying it when we were off camera, but like that was one of the coolest parts of this to me, like from a business perspective

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Jesse Stakes: like, and I kind of likened it to wheel manufacturers that I've seen, where they take a solid billet of aluminum, and they mill it down to a wheel, and they take all the shavings, all the waste. They condense it all, and then they wait for the aluminum market to go up, and then they sell the aluminum on the open market, and that's what this kind of made me think of. I'm like, Ping has all this data. You guys are collecting this data for your fitting process.

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Jesse Stakes: for your for your club manufacturing, and now you're being able to find ways to generate revenue with your waste for lack of a better way of saying it, because it's not waste. It's quality information. It's actually, I think, data in today's world is probably more valuable a lot of the times than hard goods. So you're figuring out a way to generate revenue with the data that you guys have been collecting for years. I think it's fantastic.

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chris broadie: Yeah, it's all. It's always something that we've tried to keep our hands on to be able to support our our tour staff. And then, yeah, realize there's opportunity to

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chris broadie: to kind of leverage it and provide it as a service to our fitting community. And it's kind of like there's tiers of, I guess, waste in the way you characterized it, whereas, like, yeah, we we could ride this to our tour players. It's like, Oh, no, this would be great if we could.

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chris broadie: even if it doesn't make any money as a service, if we can provide it as a as a way to add on to the fitting experience for someone who comes in for a ping fitting that's worth it alone to be able to make sure that kind of what we said earlier, like the $600 driver doesn't, doesn't turn into a lost 20 yards at the wrong golf ball. That alone is worth it, and then kind of anything we can

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chris broadie: any revenue can generate on the on the consumer side is kind of a nice side benefit.

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Jesse Stakes: I got in my head. I keep every time you say that I got Johnny Drama stepping on Tom Brady's driver breaking it.

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Jesse Stakes: Chris, I want to ask you, how did you? So? How did you get into the business? How did like kind of what was your background? What was like, you know? What was it that that made you want to do this for a living?

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chris broadie: Yeah, I was a. I was a math major in college. I played in the club golf team at Cornell. So always definitely had an interest in golf and in math. I had an internship at paying out of college, and it was kind of a perfect blend of the 2 worlds, 2 interests. And so it's really cool

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chris broadie: to see how kind of data focused and engineering focused. Ping was. I think that's probably pretty unique in the in the golf industry that

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chris broadie: their attitude felt like it was like, let's get to the truth of what's happening in the physics side of things and the engineering side of things, and that truth will help us guide us towards making the best product. And so it's a pretty cool approach to be, hey? We're not going to focus on

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chris broadie: maybe the best marketing. But we're gonna try and make the best possible golf clubs, and that will set the stage for everything else. And so I really enjoy being able to kind of leverage the the data and math background that I had into helping out on the fitting side, and also try and apply some of those learnings to

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chris broadie: yeah, making the making the best engineering product possible. And then, yeah, I mean, the flip side is, I definitely also had this background kind of in my DNA. So my dad is Mark Broding. He came with strokes gained golf, stat, and so I was always kind of exposed growing up. As to how do you apply

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chris broadie: stats to make things as simple as possible? I think that was. I appreciate the

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chris broadie: the comment that, hey? Like, you don't have to be kind of the golf pro to understand how ball Namic works. It's a fairly simple process, and I think kind of what my dad did with strokes gained you. You take some complicated

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chris broadie: kind of stroke skin analysis, and it boils down to. Hey, you're you're driving, or you can break down someone's game, hey? You're driving is costing you 2 shots. Your approach plays gaining you one shot you're putting is gaining you another shot, and so I think it's a pretty like beautiful way to apply math to a subject is, take some complicated kind of underlying stats and make it simple for everyone to understand.

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Jesse Stakes: No, I think it's fantastic, and it's really cool that you kind of blend 2 things that you love doing like 2 passions that you had into your profession. It's that you know that old adage, that if you're you know, if you if you do what you love, then you don't work a day in your life.

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chris broadie: Yeah, definitely been been very fortunate to end up paying pretty, very lucky.

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Jesse Stakes: That's fantastic. All right, Katie, I'm gonna make you come off mute. I'm going to put you on the spot. How did so? What was your journey. How did you? How did you get where you're at?

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Katie Goodwin: Yeah. So I've been at Ping now a year. So my year anniversary was yesterday. Actually, thank you. So I came on as a digital marketing intern. Originally. I graduated from Arizona State with a degree in sports journalism, and I had always been interested in golf and in ping especially

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Katie Goodwin: I toured the campus when I was in like 2015 when I was 13, and I was like, this is where I want to work like, I want to be at ping and then

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Katie Goodwin: gosh, like 8 years later, it finally happened. So I just feel very fortunate for that. But yeah, I started as a digital marketing intern. And then I moved to the Coordinator position back in November. So I've been now now year which is so much fun. I love this job.

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Katie Goodwin: yeah, it's awesome. I love the people I work with the company, and I think, like Chris was talking to like seeing the engineering behind all the clubs and the testing that goes into everything has been really fascinating for me to learn, especially as a marketing person. I don't know. I see that side of things, and I think that also really helps my marketing, as well, you know, like you said with

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Katie Goodwin: blending science and the fun kind of for Instagram. So I've loved getting to do all of that.

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Jesse Stakes: Well, I think you guys do an excellent job of it, and it's just like it's it's that to to both of your points. I mean not for nothing, I mean. I don't think Ping could ask for a better commercial than both of you talking about what it's like to work for the company, and they sound like a fantastic employer, a fantastic place to have a career. So you know, you know, I think that's I think that that's fantastic. There's not enough of that in this country, in this world right now

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Jesse Stakes: to where you have companies that are absolutely, you know, looking for ways to make themselves desirable to work at. So I think that's, you know. And then, also, like you said, they're putting out a product that they're, you know, they're answering their own. Why, they're not just doing it for the sake of doing it. They're putting out product. That is quality. They're putting out product, that actually is, you know, impacting the sport. It's impacting the people who play it. And you know, as long as they select the right ball, they're not just chucking those drivers, or

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Jesse Stakes: reckon this of irons or wedges out the door and going to buy something else.

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Jesse Stakes: Wes, before we wrap up. Did you have anything else you wanted to ask.

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Wes Altice Golf: No, I mean, I think, this is gonna bring a lot of information out to our listeners. And you know, appreciate y'all's time.

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Wes Altice Golf: jump on the podcast and.

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Wes Altice Golf: you know, dropping some knowledge bombs and hopefully get some more questions and maybe follow up with you guys. And I'm sure we're gonna get a few.

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Jesse Stakes: Yeah, no doubt. I mean, this was, I think this was special. I think that there's it's to me like when I think I'd love to have somebody on the show, and even when I saw Bulnamic and I took the quizzes myself, I saw the kind of information that was coming back. And I was like, you know, this would be really cool for the podcast you know, it's like, you don't know what you don't know. And so it's like, you know, there's so many more things like, I had no idea we were going to talk about solar flares today. You know, it's like I had.

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Jesse Stakes: There's so many like, you know, like again, there's so much more that goes into it than what you think of is just that that you know, average everyday golfer. But it's like it's like, it's just like anything else. The people who are giving you the the equipment or the things that we enjoy the products and services that we enjoy as consumers. They put a lot of effort and a lot of sweat into it. So I want to thank you guys very much. And again, like like Wes said, I hope that we we can catch you guys down the road because I really enjoyed it.

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Jesse Stakes: Yeah, thanks so much for having us on. This was fun, fun talking.

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Katie Goodwin: Thank you.

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Wes Altice Golf: Welcome!