Did you know that over 80% of legal disputes could avoid a courtroom all together and be settled through a process called mediation? I think most folks know the definition of the term, but how many people truly understand what the process of Meidation looks like? I didn't.
My guest this week is James Murphy, Circuit Court Mediator in Duval County Florida. Prior to becoming a full-time mediator, he was a senior-level banking officer and special assets manager. He has a unique perspective to handle cases that involve business partner disagreements, debt collection, debt restructures, construction defects, foreclosures, bankruptcies, contract disputes, insurance settlements, and lender liability.
Did you know that over 80% of legal disputes could avoid a courtroom all together and be settled through a process called mediation? I think most folks know the definition of the term, but how many people truly understand what the process of Meidation looks like? I didn't.
My guest this week is James Murphy, Circuit Court Mediator in Duval County Florida. Prior to becoming a full-time mediator, he was a senior-level banking officer and special assets manager. He has a unique perspective to handle cases that involve business partner disagreements, debt collection, debt restructures, construction defects, foreclosures, bankruptcies, contract disputes, insurance settlements, and lender liability.
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Jesse Stakes: Hey, everybody! Welcome to making sense of it all! So this week my guest is James Murphy. He is a circuit court mediator in Jacksonville, Florida. James. Thank you so much for joining me.
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19043072582: Well, thank you for having me, Jesse. It's an honor to be part of your program.
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Jesse Stakes: Yeah, we've been trying to get this done for a while, so I appreciate you making the time.
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19043072582: Well, I think the real credit goes to you, my friend.
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Jesse Stakes: so tell me. Ii know a lot of people out there probably think that they understand what mediation is and what a mediator does. But can you tell me a little bit about what you do in your current role, and what a mediator actually does.
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19043072582: Sure, I am a Florida Supreme Court Certified Circuit court mediator English. That means I help people who are involved in lawsuits to settle their differences without going to court.
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19043072582: That's in a nutshell.
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Jesse Stakes: Simple enough, right.
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Jesse Stakes: I think I think sometimes people people think that that it's a you know. Anytime you start involving any kind of a legal process around anything. I think people get a little nervous. They build things up in their mind. But it really is that simple?
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19043072582: Yeah, it really is. I mean, compare that to preparing for a trial. Mediation is a much simpler process. It's much more relaxed. It's much more organic. And it is a way of really bringing resolution to
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19043072582: to people who have a disagreement
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Jesse Stakes: right? So before we jump into all that, because I think we're gonna we'll dive into everything pretty heavy. How how did you get here? What made you decide to become a mediator?
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19043072582: Well, before mediation, I had a full career in banking, and that was really my past mediation over my long banking career. I saw the full life cycle of families and businesses go from happy, humble beginnings to success and growth.
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19043072582: to strengthen the relationship, and all too often breakups.
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19043072582: And as a banker I was at the center of all things financial and trusted by both sides in the argument. So many times I found myself drawn into the middle, trying to help my friends make peace with each other. So several years ago, as I was trying to think about what are the next steps in my career? Mediation was a natural progression.
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Jesse Stakes: II always think it's interesting because there's so many skills and so many talents that people utilize in the banking industry that really do translate into other things. Yes.
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19043072582: absolutely. Yes. Banking is a great place to start you can take the skills that you learn in banking so many places, not just the financial skills, but the interpersonal skills. Of course, the business development skills. It is a great place to start a great foundation for just about any career.
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Jesse Stakes: So let's let's jump into it a little bit here, so we can start talking about. You know what mediation is when you say
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Jesse Stakes: you know
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Jesse Stakes: what. So I guess what I'm asking is, what do you? What do you actually mean when you say somebody's going through the mediation process. What does that actually mean?
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19043072582: Okay, well, mediation is a process that can help people who are in a dispute reach an agreement that puts the issue behind them, and it happens with the help of a third party facilitator, someone who's neutral to both sides and has no personal stake in the outcome. That's the mediator that's me.
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19043072582: And mediation is a is a process because it gets results gradually by helping each side to realize what is both possible and practical right. It opens the eyes and minds of people who
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19043072582: initially could only imagine one outcome to new possibilities.
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19043072582: So consider that when a case comes to me, both sides have taken extreme positions. Right? Party A on one side is demanding everything, while party B on the other side is unwilling to give up anything.
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19043072582: Mediation uses reason and enlightenment to move people closer together in small steps.
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Jesse Stakes: So at the end of that when you're like.
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Jesse Stakes: what is the expected outcome? And and is also? Is it binding? Is it something to where they go through the mediation process? And you've you find a way to, kind of, you know, work through it and get to a
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Jesse Stakes: you know, an agreed upon outcome for both parties, you know. What does that? What does that settlement look like?
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19043072582: Well, I guess at the start it's probably important for us to make a distinction between mediators, judges, and arbitrators.
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19043072582: Unlike judges and arbitrators, mediators, mediators have no authority to render decisions or to impose settlements. Our role is purely persuasive right. We're there to encourage constructive dialogue in a search for a mutual agreement.
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19043072582: I go into every session confident that there's a deal in here somewhere. We just have to find. It
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Jesse Stakes: sounds familiar and fun. That's right, we said. Banking is a good foundation for just about any profession, and banking is certainly. It's just certainly true for banking right, no doubt.
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Jesse Stakes: But you know, for saying people you who are committed getting your own way is is a challenge right? Because both parties are reluctant to budge, and neither party wants to be the first to budge. So you gotta break the stale stalemate somehow.
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Jesse Stakes: Well, I got to imagine, too. You're you're dealing with things like divorces, or you're dealing with things where people are arguing about a partnership that's being dissolved. I mean, you're dealing with stuff where people are probably pretty stubborn on both sides. They really don't, you know, they don't want to see the other person's perspective. So that's got to be one of the biggest challenges of the whole thing.
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19043072582: Yeah, emotion plays a big deal, a big part in in mediation, not my emotion. Of course, you know I'm neutral on both sides, and I don't have any interest in personal interest in the outcome. But certainly the parties involved are emotional, especially in family cases where you're dealing with financial distributions, you're dealing with
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19043072582: child custody and the rest. It's it's very challenging. So what? But mostly what I deal with is business disputes, and either way you look at it. Imagine trying to deal with 2 giant boulders right? They're too far apart for me to pull together all at one time. So what I have to do is use shuttle diplomacy. I go behind one boulder and I push on it until I get a little bit of movement. Then I go to the other side, and I push on it until I get a little bit of movement, and I shuttle back and forth.
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pushing on each side until I begin to get results at an accelerating pace.
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19043072582: But you know the trouble with moving boulders is it takes time, and time can be my adversary. If an hour goes by without tangible results, people can become discouraged and want to throw in the towel. It's essential for me to keep people optimistic and engaged at all times.
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Jesse Stakes: So I guess, how do you do that? I mean, how do you take 2 things? You know 2 2 things that are very difficult to move, or 2 opinions that are very difficult to change. And and how do you keep the momentum going to where this conversation doesn't end in a stalemate, or they don't walk away from the table, I guess I should say.
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19043072582: Well, first, I put 3 parties into separate rooms for confidential negotiations. These are places where everybody can speak freely, and nothing that is told to me in those private conversations is shared with the other side, unless, I am told explicitly to deliver the message.
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19043072582: So in these one, on one meetings I'm able to understand each side's reasoning and find room for movement. So I can ask party A, okay. Well, why is it you think you're entitled to everything party? B. Why do you think you shouldn't have to come up with anything. Right? So I start there. I look for room for movement. Then
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19043072582: next step is I've become the devil's advocate. II challenge each sides position, exposing weaknesses in their cases, and planning seeds of doubt about their prospects for success in court.
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19043072582: At the same time, I'm drawing an encouraging picture of what's possible. And throughout the course of the day that picture becomes more vivid, and as we continue to negotiate, each side begins to see a common vision of what they can accomplish together.
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Jesse Stakes: I would imagine. That's when you probably start seeing people come back to the table and they start actually truly negotiating with each other.
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19043072582: Yes, absolutely. That's the beauty of mediation. Both sides collaborate to create a resolution that works for everyone.
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Jesse Stakes: So how do you? How do you differentiate this between. If you were to sit in court with a judge and a judge, you know you've got a winner and a loser in a case, what does this look like compared to that?
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19043072582: Yeah, that's a very insightful observation, Jesse. You're right, because in court the issue is never really resolved. One side will always believe that justice was not served.
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19043072582: Now that's not to say a mediated settlement sends everyone home completely happy. Nobody gets everything they want, but immediate. Everybody gets something and nobody goes home empty handed.
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Jesse Stakes: So I feel like it's more you're having. You're you're you're truly are bringing 2 parties together for a discussion. And there's absolutely there's actually a compromise that's met that they can both live with.
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19043072582: Well, there's a settlement. Compromise and settlement are really are different. A compromise is an agreement that displeases both sides equally. A settlement, on the other hand, acknowledges reality. It becomes clear, through the course of our session
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that one side really does have a stronger case than the other. So what happens is the party with the weaker hand begins thinking, gee! If I go to court I could lose everything.
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19043072582: it will likely cost me less to cut a deal today. Well, likewise the party with the stronger hand is thinking.
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19043072582: Yeah, I'll probably win this case, but there's no telling how a judge is going to respond to the evidence as it is presented by opposing counsel. So I may get less than I expected. It's even possible I can end up with nothing at all. I might be wise to hedge my bets and
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19043072582: negotiate a settlement that I can live with today.
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Jesse Stakes: It really does feel like almost playing like a hand playing a hand in poker. Yes.
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19043072582: it is. It's very much like that. So I mean that. And that's really the decision you're trying to make. Do I want to negotiate a settlement that both sides can agree on? Or do we want to gamble on an all or nothing decision in court.
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Jesse Stakes: no doubt. Well, in in your experience, and what you've seen? Do you feel like that. This is a very. You know that this is a system, and that this is something that works. It really does feel like it kind of keeps some some stuff out of the court system which probably helps relieve a lot of, you know a lot of backup, if you will in in course, look, or in in case case loads for the court systems. But do you feel like that? This works for all parties?
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19043072582: Well, you're right about the courts being overloaded. In fact, more and more judges are advising their litigants to try to settle their differences through mediation rather than going to trial. I mean the court system. The court system really is just jammed up. The judges have more cases than they can handle, so if they can
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19043072582: help. If people can tell their differences without going to court. It's a win win for for both sides, and mediation really does work, and one of the reasons it works is, it removes obstacles in communication right? Bringing the parties together in one building for putting them in separate rooms takes personalities as the mix.
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19043072582: There's still plenty of discussion, but there's no shouting, there's no intimidation, there are no accusations. There's no interruptions. Right? Think about what we see in the Presidential candidate debates right? Whether you have 2 candidates or 7 candidates, right? It just turns into mayhem. Well, putting the parties in the separate rooms eliminates all of that.
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19043072582: And then in our private discussions we open cracks in each parties case we raise doubts that may make settlement the better option than gambling on. As we said earlier, an all or nothing judgement in court.
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19043072582: It also helps for lawyers to focus on issues that they don't want to disclose to the person, but still want their clients to consider, such as
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contributory factors that may weaken their case in a judge's mind. So, for instance, let's take a personal injury. Example.
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19043072582: your attorney may say, Well, Jesse, yeah, it's true that the produce department at the grocery store was negligent for leaving that banana peel on the floor. But it's also true, if you had not been racing down the aisle to go grab that last package of Limburg or cheese that was on sale at due discount, it's very likely that you would have seen that banana appeal and could have avoided stepping on right? So these are the kinds of things the players get to talk about.
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And so in these private sessions both sides go through a reality test and a risk assessment
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19043072582: that makes the process work.
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Jesse Stakes: James, how the how the heck! Do you know that I like Limburger cheese?
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Jesse Stakes: Well, I think you're the only person that likes only kidding. Okay, let's use you talked about it earlier. But let's play devil's advocate for a second. Here, you know. What if? What if you bring somebody into Midi mediation? And you really just can't get there. They just they can't reach an agreement. They're you know. They're they're they're stuck in. They're stuck in their own thoughts, or they believe that they believe what they believe is right.
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Jesse Stakes: What do what then? Like if they've agreed to mediation? But they just, you know, they can't get to an agreed upon
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Jesse Stakes: outcome for this. So what's what's what's next for them.
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19043072582: you know. That's you raise a great point because I have experienced that on more than one occasion. There are really 2 reasons that mediation fails. One is maybe 3, but one is the
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one of the parties believe they have an ironclad case, and they're just not going to listen to anything else. They're certain that they're going to win in court, and nothing that is said administration is going to.
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19043072582: there's any doubts about that possibility. So there is that some people are just plain, hard headed right? They won't listen to reason. I had a case years ago, where it was involving a chapter 11, bankruptcy, and the bank was weighing out a very reasonable proposal for this gentleman to accept, and he refused to do it.
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19043072582: And so we ended at an impasse. Well, it turns out that several days later the the person who was holding up the agreement, said, well, I just wanted everybody to know that I wasn't going to roll over.
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19043072582: Well, rolling over had nothing to do with it. He just had a hard head, I said right. And so he ended up accepting the deal that was available to him day days earlier, so that can happen. The other reason that mediation sometimes doesn't. Work is
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19043072582: bad advice on the part of third parties who were involved in the negotiations. It doesn't. It's not the lawyers. They're never the problem. It's usually some consulting problem.
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19043072582: Well, not not in this case. They're usually not. I mean, they have their own cases to to advance, and they're there to support their clients. II get all that. But, generally speaking, the the
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19043072582: words are not obstacles to progress. What happens is that sometimes the one side, or maybe both sides, will bring in a consultant, a per consultant, someone who is supposed to be an expert in the field, and that expert, in order to add value to the relationship is going to be obstructionist. And they say, No, you shouldn't take that. I know how that business works so II wouldn't accept it. So they stand in the way of way of progress. But taking those things out of the mix
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19043072582: mediation really is very successful, you know. The other thing that comes up is, people always say, Well, I'm standing on principle. It's not the money. It's the principle of the thing. Well, when you boil it all down, it is the money it all comes down to that. So, but those are some of those things that can stand in the way of successful mediation.
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Jesse Stakes: So for somebody who's listening to this, and they're, you know, they're kind of if they have their own personal situation, or if they're just listening to learn, then, you know, bottom line.
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Jesse Stakes: why would somebody what would motivate somebody to choose mediation over going a different direction.
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19043072582: Well, now, for one thing, mediation saves time right whenever a lawsuit is filed, the first thing that happens is discovery, which is the gathering of evidence. Lawyers on both sides demand documentation of everything. I mean, they want bank statements. They want financial statements. They want copies of email, correspondence, text messages, paper correspondence right? And then there are the depth positions where you have to go to somebody's office and give testimony, answer questions under oath.
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19043072582: Right? All of that takes time away from other priorities, like being with your family or building your business right? So mediation can save time.
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19043072582: Then there's cost. Deviation can save money, I mean gathering all that information that's talked about. There's a cost to that, whether you hire somebody do it or you do it yourself.
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19043072582: but once you collect all the information it has to be scanned or copied and delivered to your attorney for review before it goes to opposing counsel. Well, your attorneys review the documents is all billable time.
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19043072582: right? Every conversation you have with your attorney, every meeting you have, every email message you exchange, every text message, you exchange. It's all, Bill, and that doesn't even meant. Consider the time that will be devoted to actually preparing for trial.
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19043072582: Well, the mediation most cases can be settled or not in a day. So just think about all the billable hours you could save by going through mediation versus preparing for trial.
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19043072582: sure, and then there's risk another reason people would choose. Mediation is risk. Mediation is much less risky than going to trial with mediation. You know what you have right. As we said earlier, there's no telling how a judge is going to respond to the evidence.
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19043072582: So You may think you have a a winning case. But
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Judge may have a totally different idea.
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19043072582: And so, when the decision is handed down, you may get an unpleasant surprise. and the best part of mediation is that everybody gets to return to a normal life with an agreement that all parties had a hand in created.
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Jesse Stakes: no doubt. Well, and II mean, I'm sure everybody that's listening to this can think of high profile cases that have gone to court, and that you know all of this evidence that they have to turn in for discovery, it all becomes public knowledge as well. So I mean, it's it's really
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Jesse Stakes: people essentially know your business. When you go into court with something, then, then, that the public has the opportunity to know your business as well. I gotta imagine that a lot of people in today's world because of things like that. And because of the you know how freely information flows anymore, mediation really becomes a win-win for everybody involved.
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19043072582: Yeah, you raise a number of great points. The thing about me one of the nice things about mediation is it's completely confidential. It's a sealed environment. Nothing Gret is said or negotiated mediation leaks out. So it's completely confidential. And I gotta imagine that me, the demand for that has got to be increasing in today's world.
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19043072582: Absolutely. Yeah. Demand for mediation. All around is increasing. People are definitely seeing the benefit of mediation over. Over going to court. Now, the sudden, some disputes that just can't probably can't be settled in mediation. You're going to have to go to trial, especially if it's going to involve a jury. But mediation is a growing industry.
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19043072582: So let me ask you. So I mean, it's it's a win-win, and you mentioned it's a win-win for everybody, and it is I mean, the litigants get to put their dispute into the past with a settlement, and even the lawyers, both lawyers, with a negotiated agreement, get to claim victory right? That doesn't happen in court. Right? One side wins and one side loses but a mediation. Everybody wins
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Jesse Stakes: right. You're not having to split the baby.
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19043072582: That's right. Exactly
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Jesse Stakes: so. Let me ask you this, then, because I mean it's I think, that that I don't see a downside in anything that you have said, you know as a mediator, what types of disputes do you handle? What if people are listening to this? And if they have things going on, what what are things that would should trigger them to, you know, to to think of James Murphy.
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19043072582: Sure the well, II handle any kind of a case that doesn't involve family matters. So I'm not certified in family mediation, for one thing, and as we mentioned earlier, it's very emotional. I really prefer to not to business disputes are my specialty. I have particular expertise
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19043072582: expertise with cases that involve banking issues such as loan defaults, debt restructures, foreclosures, and bankruptcies. I'm also especially skilled in handling disagreements that involve contracts and building construction matters
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Jesse Stakes: well, and I know we just touched on it before. But you really do have an extensive knowledge in banking and underwriting, and I think that it's there's a tremendous advantage for folks that that that tap you to handle disputes such as these.
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19043072582: Well, and that's a great point one of the things I find. Of course, in any mediation. There are. There are 2 warriors.
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19043072582: It's not exclusive, of course. But most of the lawyers that I encounter in mediation are not finance people. So it helps to have somebody another extra tool, that extra tool in your toolbox right so to add insight into into the case. That may help it. Resolve.
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Jesse Stakes: I couldn't agree more. I think, that being able to draw from past experience and the the just, the breadth of situations and and examples that you have to pull from in in your history, in the, in the industry are tremendous. So before we get before we leave, or before we, before we wrap this up. Is there anything, any parting thoughts, or anything that you can think of that. We haven't touched on that. You feel people would benefit from hearing.
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19043072582: Yes, I'd say, the moral mediation is to quote John Lennon, give peace a chance. Right? As we said earlier, you know, both sides begin with extreme positions, so
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when they go directly to trial without mediation.
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19043072582: there's nothing that has happened to moderate their thinking. So the trial becomes a knock down, drag out, fight for the finish.
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Each one ends with a winner and a loser
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19043072582: mediation, on the other hand, helps people to see reason. It restores harmony and brings closure to everybody
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19043072582: fair enough.
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Jesse Stakes: So if people hear this, they're interested, they'd like to learn more about it, or they have a matter that they would like to speak to you about. How can they contact you?
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19043072582: Well, they can contact me by telephone at 9 0 4, 3, 0, 7, 2, 5, 8, 2.
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19043072582: They can email me at Tiger hoya@bellsouth.net. That's TIGE. RHOY. A. At Bell, South Net.
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19043072582: where they can find me on Linkedin
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as James Stephen Murphy, Circuit Court, mediator in Jacksonville, Florida.
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Jesse Stakes: Awesome. J. James, I really appreciate you joining me today. I think it was insightful. I think, that people should get a lot out of this. It's it's not something that people look at every day, but it's something that can impact their lives dramatically. So thanks again for joining me.
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19043072582: Well, thank you, Jesse, I hope your listeners never need what I do. But if they do please think of me and thank you very much for having me. It was an honor to be part of your program
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Jesse Stakes: absolutely.